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面对现实,共同建构——郭小力专访
发表:2011-05-10 10:13阅读:1293

 

尘肺农民工患者 PENVMOCONIOSIS PATIENTS OF MIGRANT WORKERS

收租院 RENT COLLECTION COURTYARD

张建华作品 ZHANG JIANHUA WORK

 

面对现实,共同建构

——郭小力专访

采访人_于海元

 

库艺术(以下简称库):我们这一次的主题是“建构中的现实性”,《收租院》本身是无可争议的现实主义经典,您觉得它在今天展出的最大现实意义是什么?

郭小力(以下简称郭):首先,新中国美术经典是我们炎黄艺术馆重要的研究方向之一,《收租院》这组雕塑作品是新中国美术经典作品中一个非常重要的个案。《收租院》这组雕塑作品诞生于1965年,距今有46年的历史。它曾于1966年在北京部分展出过,今天第一次在北京炎黄艺术馆,非常完整的展出这组大型雕塑作品。我们研究经典的目的就是为了解历史,回顾经典,充分展现出《收租院》作品原有的艺术风貌,并通过展示《收租院》在历史和艺术双重语境下意义流变的历程,重新开启讨论新中国经典美术的艺术语境,为今天的中国艺术创作提供启迪和思考。

《收租院》是1965年四川美术学院师生接受的一个政治创作任务。从艺术语言上来说,很明显的延续了西方写实的造型传统,而在当地进行创作时又结合了民间雕塑手法,在实践中将二者很巧妙的融合起来,达到了巧夺天工的效果。开辟了一条雕塑语言民族化的道路,对于今天中国艺术创作仍具有现实意义。

《收租院》由七个故事组成,像是一部章回体的小说,而且其中的配饰、道具等用了很多的现成品, “写实”与“写意”的完美融合成就了这组现实主义经典作品。

另外我觉得有一个很重要的方面是,从这组雕塑作品中我们可以感受到一种强烈的人文主义关怀,这种“乌托邦”式的情怀,在今天我们更加需要,这种朴素的情怀是一种集体主义、革命浪漫主义与革命现实主义的自然融合。艺术下乡,田野工作我觉得这种做艺术的方式特别好,这样的艺术离我们很近。  

库:您曾说“还是想让作品还原为作品本身,从研究艺术语言的角度去展开这个展览”,但《收租院》背后特定的意识形态与政治背景好像已经让现代人比较难以从一个单纯艺术的角度去观看?

郭:不能否认,这组雕塑作品是特殊时期的一个特殊产物,而且曾经为了适应不同时段的政治需要,《收租院》在此期间诞生了众多复制版本和四个修改版本,吸引了从国家领导人到社会普罗大众的热切关注,一度被奉为“文艺革命的样板”。我们不能回避这个历史性,而且也一定要记住曾经的现实。

《收租院》的特殊性与复杂性,超越了学术界而在社会公共领域产生巨大影响。但今天我们是还原作品的艺术风貌,艺术是回味,是提示,也是批评,但绝不是确定性结论。如果我们一定要说艺术是政治,那就证明我们还没有学会谈论艺术,证明我们还是在说社会和历史。

库:吴为山对《收租院》的评论中,用了一个词形容《收租院》——“悲悯”,“叹民生之多艰”;徐冰也曾说过,“艺术为人民服务”不管放到哪个时代哪个流派都是成立的;这些思想都是根源于《毛**在延安文艺座谈会上的讲话》,这也是中国最有特色也最完整的文艺理论,您怎样看待这一理论遗产在今天的艺术语境中的运用?

郭:我们都来源于这个基础,不可能跟它失去联系,就看你怎样与之发生联系。今天这个时代是一个辩证、矛盾和微观的时代,也是一个多重复调的时代,我们不再可能像过去那样集体化、单一化、独白式的去理解任何发生的事物。《收租院》是具有宏大的精神建构性的作品,如果很直接的说,这组作品讲的就是人的平等和人的解放。虽然事实永远不平等,但是观念是需要平等的。我们今天需要解放的是观念,这就是《收租院》带来的启示。无论发展什么样的文艺理论,艺术都是我们无数次要接近的一种可能。

库:《收租院》创作的主旨是让农民看懂,并从中受教育,吴冠中也说过要让“专家点头,群众鼓掌”,而现在好像很少有艺术家以此作为创作的目的与动力,特别是当代艺术与大众的距离也一直比较远,您怎样看作者——作品——观众这三者之间的关系的一种变化?   

郭:蔡元培先生曾经提出要以“美育代宗教”,他认为美术教育是非常有效的,甚至可以作为大众的一种宗教。所以在这一宗旨下发展的中国现代艺术大都是跟社会形态结合的。中国现代美术思潮就是对西方美术的进入最直接的回应。而当代艺术还在发展过程中,需要一个建构的过程。况且因为中国特殊的历史进程,艺术与现实社会之间总是不那么亲近,但是我还是感到当代艺术在靠近社会,靠近大众,而不是拒绝。所以,这个需要多方面建构,让作者——作品——观众变成互相需要的关系。

库:《收租院》虽然是一个政治任务,但艺术家们心无旁骛,不计较个人利益,创作出了真正的中国风格;现在的当代艺术,虽然在政治上松动了,却又被资本俘获,被国外大展俘获,被西方俘获,这才有了关于中国当代艺术“后殖民”化的讨论,您认为这是一个值得关注的问题吗?应该怎样看待这一现象?

郭:当代艺术是观念的艺术,不应该要得出什么确定的结论。比方说,“经典”只是要把作品做好,而当代艺术是看上去要把作品做坏,但是实际上还是为了做好;“经典”的态度是很明确的,而当代艺术的任务在于提示和呈现我们生活的复杂性和矛盾性,如果不理解这一点,就不可能理解当代艺术。从这个意义上说,我认为理解当代艺术确实是需要一定文本的基础和理解力,但要说当代艺术被资本、西方所俘获、被国外大展俘获,我认为这个说法太简单了吧。因为中国当代艺术这个群体里面有非常优秀的艺术家,他们跟国际上最优秀的艺术家是同等级的,甚至更具活跃性。权威和资本如果想要俘获什么,应该是不分国界吧,所以,在中国当代艺术界,一定会有坚持精神思想独立,不受权威和资本笼罩的艺术家;在西方,也一定会有被权威和资本捆绑的艺术家,西方艺术也不存在牢不可破,大家都在突围,都在寻找新的起点,在全球艺术体系获得检验,我想或许这个是现实吧。

库:您认为这种经典的产生需要具备哪些条件?什么样的作品能称得上“经典”?

郭:我想每个时代的艺术都有它自身得天独厚的长处,同时又一定是有自身的局限。经典作品的出现可能还需要特定的历史情况,导致独特的经典作品问世。不管什么时代,艺术家还是要清楚地知道自己试图做什么,但是他们唯独不能指望自己做出经典作品,或者认为自己正在做的就是经典作品。经典作品只可能是未来从历史的视角才被看作是经典作品的。有一个词应该最能表现“经典”的含义,那就是成熟。

库:我们这一期的专题“建构中的现实性”也是希望从这一传统中找到能够为今天的当代艺术所借鉴吸收的资源(面对现实的态度、反思与批判的能力等),对这一问题你怎么看? 

郭:我们必须对自己的历史有所了解,到经典中去找到自己的根源。如果不了解历史,那么今天的工作实际上是断裂的。为什么像我们炎黄艺术馆要不断推出徐悲鸿、颜文樑、刘海粟等早期艺术家的经典研究展,就是希望大家对“经典”有所回顾和重新理解,在新的语境下有新的解读,再结合今天的社会现实理解今天的艺术。当然我们追溯“经典”的目的不是单纯的回顾,而是为了在今天的现实中去认识自己,认识这个时代,这样才能知道如何去推进今天的工作,使自己的工作对现实发生作用。研究历史、提示未来和创造语言,我觉得这就是从事艺术的人们要做的工作。至于从经典中借鉴什么,这要从他个人的目的与身处的现实出发,每一个观者的角度都不一样。

库:也就是说“建构中的现实性”,最终还是要回到个人“现实性的建构”?今天的“现实性”可能不像《收租院》中的“现实性”那样整齐,那样铁板一块;而是往往回归到一个多元的“个人现实性的建构”中去?

郭:我想应该是的,个人对历史的审视与对个人“现实性”的建构是结合在一起的,任何有创造性的人,都是参与了时代发展过程中文化语言的建构任务的。我们今天是宏观管理和微观管理并进的时代,政治是每个人的政治,而今天的“现实性”已经是一个多层次的,参差不齐的现实。我们不应试图去概括它,把所有的人都放到一个“现实性”里面去;而是应该具体去探讨微观的每一个人在建构中所起的作用。理解前人,了解自己,我们只能选择去面对自己所处的现实,发展共同的建构,这恐怕就是我们今天要建构的一种“现实性”。

 

 

 

GUO XIAOLI:FACE  THE REALITY AND COMMON

CONSTRUCTION 

INTERVIEWER_YU HAIYUAN

 

 

Kuart (hereafter referred to as KU):the current theme is “reality under constructing”, and Rent Collection Courtyard is incontrovertibly a classic of realism. What is the largest realistic significance of today’s exhibition, in your opinion?

Guo Xiaoli(hereafter referred to as GUO): firstly, fine art classics of new China are one of the important research directions of Yanhuang Art Museum, and the set of sculptures, Rent Collection Courtyard, is an important case in fine art classics of new China. Rent Collection Courtyard was created in 1965, 46 years from now, and in 1966, part of the work was exhibited in Beijing. But it is the first time for completed work to be exhibited in Yanhuang Art Museum in Beijing. The purpose we study classics is to learn more about history, review the classics and completely show the original artistic appearance of Rent Collection Courtyard. At the same time, through exhibiting the changing process of the work under both historical and artistic contexts, it will reopen the artistic context of fine art classics of new China to provide enlightenment and reflection for the creation today in China.

Rent Collection Courtyard is a political creation task undertaken by teachers and students from Sichuan Fine Arts Institute in 1965. From the aspect of artistic language, it continues the modeling tradition of western realism, and in actual creation, it also combines the approach of folk sculpture in China. The ingenious combination of the two approaches resulted in wonderful workmanship, opened a nationalizing way for sculpture, and still has realistic significance for the art creation today in China.

Rent Collection Courtyard is made up of seven stories, like the type of traditional Chinese novels with captions for each chapter, and besides, lots of finished products were adopted as accessories, props, etc. The perfect combination of realistic and spiritual expression fulfills this set of artwork as classics.

Furthermore, I think, another important aspect is that we can feel strong humanist caring in this set of sculptures, and we still need this Utopia feeling today, even more. This simple feeling is a natural mixing of collectivism, revolutionary romanticism and revolutionary realism. In my opinion, the method returning art to countryside and fieldwork is excellent, and in this way, art is so close to us.

KU: you once said “I would like to restore artwork as artwork itself, to unfold this exhibition from the aspect of studying artistic language”, but the ideology and political background behind Rent Collection Courtyard seems hard for modern people to appreciate simply from the aspect of art?

GUO: the truth is that we cannot deny. The sculpture works are products of special period, and for the political demands of different periods, there are lots of duplicates and four revised versions, which have attracted the attentions of both state leaders and the masses, and it was once regarded as “template of literary revolution”. We cannot avoid the history and must remember the past reality. The specialty and complexity of Rent Collection Courtyard was beyond the academic filed and extended to pubic domain. However, we are going to restore the original appearance of art. Art is aftertaste, is hint, and is criticism but absolutely not definitive conclusion. If we have to regard art as politics, it means we have not learned to talk about art but still on society and history.

KU: in the criticism of Wu Weishan on Rent Collection Courtyard, an adjective is used, “compassionate”, “sighing on the hard livelihood of people”; Xu Bing also said “Art serves people”, and it was applicable to all times and all schools; all those thoughts are from Talks at the Yenan Forum on Literature and Art by Mao Zedong, and it is the most characteristic and most completed literature and art theory in China. How do you think of this theoretical heritage in the artistic context today?

GUO: we all come from the same foundation and cannot lost contact with it. The difference is how you connect it. It is a dialectical, contradicted and microscopic era today, and it is also a multiple era. We are unable to understand the occurrences of objects in collectivistic, simple, and monologic method as past. Rent Collection Courtyard is a magnitude work constructed by spirits. Directly speaking, the work is interpreting people’s equality and liberation. Although the truth is that there is no absolute equality, it emphasizes that the concepts need to be equal. Today, it is the concepts that need unchained, which is the enlightenment of Rent Collection Courtyard. No matter what literature and art theory to be developed, art is always the possibility we get close in numerous times.

KU: the creation theme of Rent Collection Courtyard is to let peasants understood, and then they can learn from it. Wu Guanzhong also said the purpose was to “let experts nodding and the masses applauding”, but now it seems there are seldom artists take this as creation aim and motivation, especially contemporary art is always far away from the mass. What do you think of the relationship between author, work and audiences? 

GUO: once Prof Cai Yuanpei put forward “replacing religion with fine art education”, and he thought that fine art education was effective, even could serve as a religion for people. Under this principle, contemporary arts in China are combined with social formation. The ideological trends of contemporary fine arts are the most direct response to western fine arts. Contemporary art is still under development, and it needs a process of construction. Due to the special history process of China, it seems there is always a distance between art and actual society, but I get the feeling that contemporary arts is closing to society, closing to the mass instead of repelling. Thus, it shall be constructed from all aspect to form the mutual demand between author, works and audiences.

KU: although Rent Collection Courtyard is a political task, the artists were so devoted regardless of personal interests and created works of real Chinese characteristics. At present, although it is in less politically charged atmosphere, contemporary art is captured by fund, by grand international exhibition, by the western, and thus it arouses the discussion of “post-colonial period” in contemporary arts of China. Do you thick this issue worthy attention? How do you think of this phenomenon?

GUO: contemporary art is conceptual art and there shall be no definitive conclusions. For example, “classics” were only to make better works while contemporary art seems to destroy works, but in fact, it is also making better works. The attitude of “classics” is definite while the tasks of contemporary art are to point out and present the complexity, the contradictoriness of out life. If people fail to understand this point, they cannot understand contemporary art. In this sense, I think contemporary art needs certain text foundation and understanding, and I believe the viewpoint of captured by capital, by grand international exhibition, by the western is too simple. For there are excellent artists in the group of contemporary art, and they are at the same level of international excellent artists, even more active. If authority and fund wants to capture something, it shall be beyond national boundaries. Thus, in the circle of contemporary art in China, there are artists who insist on independent thoughts and cannot be impacted by authority and capital, and in western, there are artists who are bound by authority and capital. Western art is not unbreakable, and people all over the world are seeking for new starting points and checking in global art system. I believe this may be the reality. 

KU: what do you think are the conditions for generating classics? What works can be called “classics”?

GUO: I think the art of each period has their uniqueness and is restricted by the times. The emergence of classic works may need specific historical circumstances. No matter what era it is, artists clearly understand what they are doing but they cannot expect that they can make classics or the works undergoing are classics. Classic works may be only the ones regarded as classics from the aspect of history. Maybe one word can fully interpret the content of “classics”, that is mature.

KU: the current theme is “reality under constructing” and it expects to discover the sources (attitude toward reality, introspection and criticism capacity, etc) that can be adsorbed by contemporary arts from traditions. What do think of this issue?

GUO: we must know our history before seeking for origins from the classics. If you do not understand history, your works today must be faulted. The reason why we constantly put forward classical exhibitions of early artists in Yanhuang Art Museum, such as Xu Beihong, Yan Wenliang and Liu Haisu, is expecting that people can find new interpretations through looking back under new context and it can help people to understand the arts today together with current reality. Of course, the purpose we trace back to classics is not only simply looking back, but to recognize oneself today and then make efforts to play our role in work. Studying history, giving hint to future and creating language, I think this is the job of people engaged in arts. For what we will learn from classics, different viewers have different opinions and it shall start from their personal goal and reality.

KU: in other words, “reality under constructing” will finally return to personal “reality construction”? The reality today is far from that in Rent Collection Courtyard, which was neat as a monolithic block, but it will return to diversified personal “reality construction” generally?

GUO: I think so. A person’s review to history is combined with his reality construction, and any creative human has been participated in the construction of cultural languages in the development of times. Today is an era of hand-in-hand macroscopic management and microscopic management, and the politics is individual politics, but the reality today has developed into a discordant reality. We are not trying to conclude it by placing all people into one reality, but to discuss the role of individual in the construction. Through understanding predecessors and ourselves, we can only face to the reality we locate and develop joint construction, I’m afraid it is the “reality” we are construction today.

KU: by comparison, whether a well-recognized classic can be generated is not so important?

GUO: instead of expecting classics, it is make efforts to create classics.

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